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Still prefer to view it as a quiet corner for watch-over-thinkers.
Yeah, IIRC it was Sep/Oct but as you can imagine… that’s one which is pretty tightly guarded. May even be a surprise at Geneva watch days.
I can’t imagine Hermes would be so foolish to partner with AP, unless the new CEO has wooed them into believing she’s going to stop the FHB circus act. Hermes is Uber luxury, AP has come to seem too ostentatious to be compatible with that image. Oh, I’m nearly done with the Hermes article so watch this space!
As for RM - even if Hermes and AP did something, I don’t think RM would care… but I’ll think about it some more. Hmm.
I can understand a rationale for a (partial) sale of AP to Hermes:
-AP is family owned and controlled; Hermes is family controlled, and the descendants retain significant ownership
-LVMH has made a more concerted push into watchmaking, both through emphasis on TAG Heuer, as well as bolstering LV’s watches (as you discuss above); LV’s ownership of Tiffany helps them compete against Richemont in hard luxury; further, Kering and Richemont have struggled of late (downturn in Gucci and over-indexed to hard luxury / watches in a down market, respectively)
-A sale of AP would solve the problem of the brand being a “one watch” offering, as the non-Royal Oak (Offshore) offerings have languished on store shelves (I quite like the Code 11:59, personally)
-Finally, I believe that LMVH will own Patek at some point
AP doesn’t fit with the Hermes values - they switched from proper guilloche and hard work to stamped dials and machine work- this is the opposite of what Hermes stands for. They somehow managed to scale extreme luxury with an unprecedented amount of handcraft artisans maintaining quality despite scale - AP sacrifices quality for scale. The compatibility is non existent. AP’s problem of being a “one watch brand” will not be solved by selling equity to any group, Hermes or any of the others. In fact, I would argue AP selling to LVMH is a better play and a better fit for both.
Don’t forget, LVMH have Hublot too. So they could take on Richemont across the board… Tag, Hublot/LV and then AP… Catering to more segments.
As for Patek and LVMH - wholeheartedly disagree. Patek stands alone, and aside from perhaps the Hans Wilsdorf foundation, any other owner would devalue their brand.
I assume you have listened to the Acquired podcast episode covering Hermes, which I found illuminating. The most interesting part was the confirmation, I believe sourced from the WSJ, that they make 120K bags a year (which stunned me). Another anecdote from that episode - the Hermes collaboration with Apple features products that are not handmade…
AP’s problem of being a “one watch brand” would be solved for the current shareholders in a sale! 😂 AP has been unable to solve that problem in-house, thus far.
We will certainly have to disagree on Patek … the lack of connection to any descendants of the founders devalues the brand in my eyes.
Absolutely I have, that episode is the foundation of my essay, as their LVMH episode was the foundation of my LVMH post! Love those deep dives :)
🤣 point taken on AP.
On Patek - we're both pissing into the wind of course... but you only need to recall the eyesore that is the Tiffany Blue Nautilus to get a taste of how badly the Arnault clan could wreck Patek. You're right, it is certainly on the list of possible outcomes. All I am saying is that it is not a probable one.
Acquired does an outstanding job; I look forward to them inevitably covering a number of watchmakers.
I had the Tiffany Blue Nautilus in mind when I wrote my remarks above! Specifically, the one-off 5740 casually adorning Bernard’s wrist during an impromptu chess game with Frédéric. What’s next? A Tiffany x Nike x Patek collab? Patek x Loewe? Patek x LV (monogram dial)? Etc. None are worse than the Black Panther AP, I will readily admit.
As I side comment, luck is great, but means is so much more a factor… kinda like if I throw a lot of shit at the wall, something will eventually stick… limited means mean than you can’t buy it, forget it and wait for it to randomly shoot up years down the line and you will need to let it go to pick up other things… so, comes back to our favorite saying, buy what you love, wear what you buy. This is a hobby, not a vocation.
This is a can of worms - but unless you’re a moron, “means” is much more variable than people care to admit. You can earn a lot of money, or you can earn less and have more time… or you can invest a HARD ten years in a startup and grind like a beast to eventually exit with a huge lump sum … or you can just work in a 9-5 and basically work for the foreseeable future. Everything is possible, and where we end up is, again, a mix of luck and opportunity, as well as personal choices.
Therefore… this “means” angle is a bit of a red herring in this context regarding pure luck. It’s not an actual input.
“Whatever the mind can conceive and believe, it can achieve” ….Napoleon Hill
This may be a stretch but in my experience things are much more likely to materialize when I/we focus, VISUALIZE, and really open ones self to the possibility of something we want or are trying to achieve ….. took many years for this to sink in but it had something to do with the “serendipity” or “luck” I’ve had not only in life (after ruinous decades I might add) but particularly in watch collecting as well
If we think we can’t do or have something it definitely works in reverse!!!
Absolutely loved the part on philosophy. I love how you enable us all to connect our passion of watches with meaningful aspects of ourselves and our circumstances.
I was debating whether a poll would be worth bothering with. Would it be worth making it shorter? Or splitting it? Or just leave it? Or just do whatever, and not bother asking? All this stuff I waste time considering.
Another massive roundup with some delicious tangents. Didn’t know the story of Albert Piguet and the Lemania movements. The Birkenstock feature is indeed a corker. Bravo!
It forgetting to relax. The universe is speaking through you. I needed to hear that. I think LV is one to keep an eye on for the coming years. They’ve picked up some the great talent from Patek and AP to steer this watch making ship. I sat in a horological event several weeks back where LV came to present what they are doing and their vision for their future in watchmaking. I was impressed much more than I expected.
As long as LV puts profit over pride and excellence, they will never get anywhere. I'll share an anecdote to make this point.
In South Africa, LV makes a conscious decision to allow a small percentage of counterfeit goods to leak into the market. They argue, these goods can eventially reach some aspiring owners who will eventually buy the authentic items - and the admiration they enjoy as a result of having the LV objects, despite being fake, makes them aspire to work hard and buy the original. This type of strategy is pretty good in the pursuit of profit.
Hermes, on the other hand, burns extra products which failed QC, even if the defect is not visible to 99% of people inspecting the item. This displays what I call pride and excellence. They could do many things... even take these objects to sell in a factory outlet store and I bet they would have queues around the block. They dont - they burn it all!
This makes a more subtle point about how LV doesn't quite 'get it' the way truly exclusive luxury companies like Hermes 'get it' - that doesn't mean they aren't an exceptional company - of course they are... but in terms of watchmaking brands, this secret sauce is the same thing they currently lack. It may still come, as you said, but something's gotta change first.
Well, that’s pretty much almost exactly what I would have commented if it hadn’t taken me two evenings to read (lost in the links as well😰🤗) and you hadn’t said it first!
I’m curious… why do you prefer to get lost along the way, instead of reading the actual post, then doing the links afterwards?
Is it because you’ll never return for links if you complete the main body? Or because you see the body as a whole, and leaving links unopened feels like you’ve missed something?
Actually sometimes I go either way but I find that most likely I won’t get back to many of them ….. usually referring to links enclosed in the text/ article when I get sidetracked rather than the ones listed at the end
Great write up as always, also, someone likes FPJ too much, but we all knew that 😂😂. As far as movement design inspirations are concerned, I immediately thought of the Arnold and Son Time Pyramid - came out more than 10 years ago if I am not wrong..(and it’s actually a very innovative watch) of course you also have a DB with its Spaceship inspired architecture (though pretty much just the bridge) and arguably the Legacy Machines. Lange 1 follows a story similar to your FPJ example where the dial layout fully governed the movement architecture. Then of course you have the UN Freak.
Awesome colour and fantastic examples too. MB&F architect watch maybe qualifies, although the whole “house” analogy seems to have nothing to do with the watch aesthetics to my eye. Either way… great comment 👊
Beyond watch talk, the cultural links are just awesome this week. Someone bought Steve Job's stank ass shoes...gross. The stories that come through luck/serendipity are often better, but you have to respect hard work and smarts. I'm glad to see you landed in the middle at the conclusion of your essay. Cheers to another great addition which always lands at lunch time for me, thanks for that. Looking forward to getting to some of the other links later.
This has quickly become the preeminent watch insider newsletter - well done!
I am curious about a few industry rumors…
-When will the Patek Cubitus break cover? October?
-Any truth to the rumors of an AP sale to (or partnership with) Hermes? Were that to transpire, what impact would it have on Richard Mille?
That’s too generous, but thank you… 🙏😅
Still prefer to view it as a quiet corner for watch-over-thinkers.
Yeah, IIRC it was Sep/Oct but as you can imagine… that’s one which is pretty tightly guarded. May even be a surprise at Geneva watch days.
I can’t imagine Hermes would be so foolish to partner with AP, unless the new CEO has wooed them into believing she’s going to stop the FHB circus act. Hermes is Uber luxury, AP has come to seem too ostentatious to be compatible with that image. Oh, I’m nearly done with the Hermes article so watch this space!
As for RM - even if Hermes and AP did something, I don’t think RM would care… but I’ll think about it some more. Hmm.
I can understand a rationale for a (partial) sale of AP to Hermes:
-AP is family owned and controlled; Hermes is family controlled, and the descendants retain significant ownership
-LVMH has made a more concerted push into watchmaking, both through emphasis on TAG Heuer, as well as bolstering LV’s watches (as you discuss above); LV’s ownership of Tiffany helps them compete against Richemont in hard luxury; further, Kering and Richemont have struggled of late (downturn in Gucci and over-indexed to hard luxury / watches in a down market, respectively)
-A sale of AP would solve the problem of the brand being a “one watch” offering, as the non-Royal Oak (Offshore) offerings have languished on store shelves (I quite like the Code 11:59, personally)
-Finally, I believe that LMVH will own Patek at some point
Bombastic take, I’ll give you that.
AP doesn’t fit with the Hermes values - they switched from proper guilloche and hard work to stamped dials and machine work- this is the opposite of what Hermes stands for. They somehow managed to scale extreme luxury with an unprecedented amount of handcraft artisans maintaining quality despite scale - AP sacrifices quality for scale. The compatibility is non existent. AP’s problem of being a “one watch brand” will not be solved by selling equity to any group, Hermes or any of the others. In fact, I would argue AP selling to LVMH is a better play and a better fit for both.
Don’t forget, LVMH have Hublot too. So they could take on Richemont across the board… Tag, Hublot/LV and then AP… Catering to more segments.
As for Patek and LVMH - wholeheartedly disagree. Patek stands alone, and aside from perhaps the Hans Wilsdorf foundation, any other owner would devalue their brand.
I assume you have listened to the Acquired podcast episode covering Hermes, which I found illuminating. The most interesting part was the confirmation, I believe sourced from the WSJ, that they make 120K bags a year (which stunned me). Another anecdote from that episode - the Hermes collaboration with Apple features products that are not handmade…
AP’s problem of being a “one watch brand” would be solved for the current shareholders in a sale! 😂 AP has been unable to solve that problem in-house, thus far.
We will certainly have to disagree on Patek … the lack of connection to any descendants of the founders devalues the brand in my eyes.
Absolutely I have, that episode is the foundation of my essay, as their LVMH episode was the foundation of my LVMH post! Love those deep dives :)
🤣 point taken on AP.
On Patek - we're both pissing into the wind of course... but you only need to recall the eyesore that is the Tiffany Blue Nautilus to get a taste of how badly the Arnault clan could wreck Patek. You're right, it is certainly on the list of possible outcomes. All I am saying is that it is not a probable one.
Acquired does an outstanding job; I look forward to them inevitably covering a number of watchmakers.
I had the Tiffany Blue Nautilus in mind when I wrote my remarks above! Specifically, the one-off 5740 casually adorning Bernard’s wrist during an impromptu chess game with Frédéric. What’s next? A Tiffany x Nike x Patek collab? Patek x Loewe? Patek x LV (monogram dial)? Etc. None are worse than the Black Panther AP, I will readily admit.
“Watch-over-thinkers” 😬🤣🫣💯
As I side comment, luck is great, but means is so much more a factor… kinda like if I throw a lot of shit at the wall, something will eventually stick… limited means mean than you can’t buy it, forget it and wait for it to randomly shoot up years down the line and you will need to let it go to pick up other things… so, comes back to our favorite saying, buy what you love, wear what you buy. This is a hobby, not a vocation.
This is a can of worms - but unless you’re a moron, “means” is much more variable than people care to admit. You can earn a lot of money, or you can earn less and have more time… or you can invest a HARD ten years in a startup and grind like a beast to eventually exit with a huge lump sum … or you can just work in a 9-5 and basically work for the foreseeable future. Everything is possible, and where we end up is, again, a mix of luck and opportunity, as well as personal choices.
Therefore… this “means” angle is a bit of a red herring in this context regarding pure luck. It’s not an actual input.
“Whatever the mind can conceive and believe, it can achieve” ….Napoleon Hill
This may be a stretch but in my experience things are much more likely to materialize when I/we focus, VISUALIZE, and really open ones self to the possibility of something we want or are trying to achieve ….. took many years for this to sink in but it had something to do with the “serendipity” or “luck” I’ve had not only in life (after ruinous decades I might add) but particularly in watch collecting as well
If we think we can’t do or have something it definitely works in reverse!!!
Absolutely loved the part on philosophy. I love how you enable us all to connect our passion of watches with meaningful aspects of ourselves and our circumstances.
Appreciate the note DB. Thank you, and appreciate your thoughtful approach to reading it too.
Gee whizz, that was quite a long one. No idea where you find time 🫶
Me neither 😂 - thanks for reading it 🙏
I was debating whether a poll would be worth bothering with. Would it be worth making it shorter? Or splitting it? Or just leave it? Or just do whatever, and not bother asking? All this stuff I waste time considering.
Just leave as is I would say
Fair enough. 😂
Another massive roundup with some delicious tangents. Didn’t know the story of Albert Piguet and the Lemania movements. The Birkenstock feature is indeed a corker. Bravo!
That French document was a random find! Very cool 😃
Thanks A! 🥂
It forgetting to relax. The universe is speaking through you. I needed to hear that. I think LV is one to keep an eye on for the coming years. They’ve picked up some the great talent from Patek and AP to steer this watch making ship. I sat in a horological event several weeks back where LV came to present what they are doing and their vision for their future in watchmaking. I was impressed much more than I expected.
Forgive the grammatical typo. It meant to read, “I’ve been forgetting to relax”
Pleasure to be the messenger 😁
As long as LV puts profit over pride and excellence, they will never get anywhere. I'll share an anecdote to make this point.
In South Africa, LV makes a conscious decision to allow a small percentage of counterfeit goods to leak into the market. They argue, these goods can eventially reach some aspiring owners who will eventually buy the authentic items - and the admiration they enjoy as a result of having the LV objects, despite being fake, makes them aspire to work hard and buy the original. This type of strategy is pretty good in the pursuit of profit.
Hermes, on the other hand, burns extra products which failed QC, even if the defect is not visible to 99% of people inspecting the item. This displays what I call pride and excellence. They could do many things... even take these objects to sell in a factory outlet store and I bet they would have queues around the block. They dont - they burn it all!
This makes a more subtle point about how LV doesn't quite 'get it' the way truly exclusive luxury companies like Hermes 'get it' - that doesn't mean they aren't an exceptional company - of course they are... but in terms of watchmaking brands, this secret sauce is the same thing they currently lack. It may still come, as you said, but something's gotta change first.
💯
Woah! Comments section becoming as prolific as the posts 🤔😳🤓🥹
Seriously, another excellent read …. Now back to links or sleep 😴 whichever comes first
🤣✊
Well, that’s pretty much almost exactly what I would have commented if it hadn’t taken me two evenings to read (lost in the links as well😰🤗) and you hadn’t said it first!
I’m curious… why do you prefer to get lost along the way, instead of reading the actual post, then doing the links afterwards?
Is it because you’ll never return for links if you complete the main body? Or because you see the body as a whole, and leaving links unopened feels like you’ve missed something?
Actually sometimes I go either way but I find that most likely I won’t get back to many of them ….. usually referring to links enclosed in the text/ article when I get sidetracked rather than the ones listed at the end
Gotcha. Fair enough
Great write up as always, also, someone likes FPJ too much, but we all knew that 😂😂. As far as movement design inspirations are concerned, I immediately thought of the Arnold and Son Time Pyramid - came out more than 10 years ago if I am not wrong..(and it’s actually a very innovative watch) of course you also have a DB with its Spaceship inspired architecture (though pretty much just the bridge) and arguably the Legacy Machines. Lange 1 follows a story similar to your FPJ example where the dial layout fully governed the movement architecture. Then of course you have the UN Freak.
😂 guilty.
Awesome colour and fantastic examples too. MB&F architect watch maybe qualifies, although the whole “house” analogy seems to have nothing to do with the watch aesthetics to my eye. Either way… great comment 👊
This time I clicked the bonus link! 😂
Also - “Luck is at the intersection of preparation and opportunity” is one of my favorite quotes
😂 Sam will appreciate it!
Great quote 🥲
Beyond watch talk, the cultural links are just awesome this week. Someone bought Steve Job's stank ass shoes...gross. The stories that come through luck/serendipity are often better, but you have to respect hard work and smarts. I'm glad to see you landed in the middle at the conclusion of your essay. Cheers to another great addition which always lands at lunch time for me, thanks for that. Looking forward to getting to some of the other links later.
Cheers uncle T 😄, hope your lunch was good 😊